E.K.,
I see what you are saying but I think one needs to go Back to the Federalist Papers, in particular to Number 39 written by James Madison. In this paper he discusses the Republican form of Government which we have adopted. Please allow me to quote ” If we resort for a criterion to the different principles on which different forms of government are established. we may define a republic to be, or at least may bestow that name on, a government which derives ALL its powers directly or indirectly from the great body of the people, and is administered by persons holding their offices during pleasure, for a limited period, or during good behavior. It is essential to such a government that it be derived from the great body of the society, not from an inconsiderable proportion, or a favored class of it; otherwise a handful of tyrannical nobles, exercising their oppressions by a delegation of their powers, might aspire to the rank of republicans, and claim for their government the honorable title of Republic. It is sufficient for such a government that the persons administering it be appointed, either directly or indirectly, by the people; and that they hold their appointments by either of the tenures just specified; otherwise every government in the United States, as well as every other popular government that has been or can be well organized or well executed would be DEGRADED from the Republican Character.”Madison goes on writing and in a later paragraph states emphatically “Could any further proof be required of the republican complexion of this system, the most decisive one might be found in its absolute prohibition of titles of nobility, both under the federal and the State governments; and in its express guaranty of the republican form to each of the latter.”Even Benjamin Franklin weighed in on this and as you know, he made this famous statement after coming out of the Convention. Asked what type of Government we would have he answered “A Republic, If We Can Keep It. Feb. 13—The great American patriot Benjamin Franklin was asked, upon his emergence from the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia in 1787, what form of government the United States was going to have. Franklin answered succinctly, “A Republic, if you can keep it.”
I have looked at your contention that James Madison and Alexander Hamilton both spoke of “a representative Democracy” during the development of the Constitution using republic and democracy interchangeably, but by the end of the Constitutional Convention the men representing the different States agreed upon and determined that our form of Government would be Republican ” They specifically wrote this into the Constitution and if you will refer to Article !V, Section 4, and again I quote ” The United States shall GUARANTEE to every State in this Union a REPUBLICAN Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened), against domestic Violence.
If you need more proof that the United States is indeed a Constitution Republic I would refer you to this site: What Form of Government did the Constitution Create? – Carolina Museum of the MarineIn this you will find, written by James Danielson PhD, a great write up about the Republican form of Government we have.I appreciate the 4 points you made about “Democracies have shared values and beliefs” but your other statement “It can be called a representative democracy ora democratic republic.” is not a viable statement. I know you are not going to change your stance on this, but I would remind you that as a leader within the League of Women Voters it is your DUTY and OBLIGATION to correctly educate the public on our Government. We often have to put our personal biases aside and present the facts to our public, and I include myself in that category as I have my biases also and have been known to be wrong………………..although that rarely happens. BUT it does.
I am enjoying our Conversation and appreciate your views on why you think our Country can be called a Democratic Republic.
OH, and by the way. Here is what is written about a Democratic Republic in Wikipedia:
Starting in the 20th century after World War II, many countries used the term “democratic republic” in their official names — most of which were Marxist-Leninist, or socialist, one-party states[10] — that did not allow political opposition, free press or other democratic norms and institutions.
These include states no longer in existence or who have changed their governmental systems and official names, (almost all Marxist-Leninist):
the German Democratic Republic (aka East Germany), the Somali Democratic Republic,[11] the Democratic Republic of Vietnam (aka North Vietnam), the People’s Democratic Republic of Yemen (aka South Yemen), the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan and the People’s Democratic Republic of Ethiopia.[12]
States which (as of 2022) use the term “Democratic Republic” in their official names also include many that do not hold free elections and have been rated as “undemocratic” or “unfree” by organizations that gave such ratings. Algeria,[13] Democratic Republic of the Congo,[14] Ethiopia,[15] North Korea,[16] Laos,[17] and Nepal,[17] do not hold free elections and are rated as undemocratic “hybrid regimes” or “authoritarian regimes” by the Economist Intelligence Unit’s Democracy Index,[18] and “not free” by (the U.S.-based, U.S.-government-funded non-governmental organization) Freedom House.[19]
In addition there are a few countries which use the term “Democratic Republic” in the name and have a good track of holding free or relatively free general elections and were rated “flawed democracy” or “full democracy” in the Democracy Index, such as the Democratic Republic of Timor-Leste, the Democratic Republic of São Tomé and Príncipe and the Democratic Socialist Republic of Sri Lanka.
Thank you and I hope you have a very enjoyable, stress free, week with lots of smiles and laughter.
Michael Potts
Hide original messageOn Sat, Sep 3, 2022 at 10:00 PM E.K. VanWie <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi again, Michael,
We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.
James Madison and Alexander Hamilton spoke about a “representative democracy” during the development of the U.S. Constitution in the late 18th century. They used the words “republic” and “democracy” almost interchangeably. There are important differences however, and both are important. The United States is a republic because of how the government operates. It is a democracy because of why it operates.
Republics elect officials to represent the will of their citizens and have an elected head of state. Democracies have shared values and beliefs, which are:
1. Free and fair elections
2. Citizen participation that is equitable
3. Citizens’ human rights/freedoms
4. Equal rule of law to protect citizens
The U.S. runs its government like a republic and bases its government on democratic values. It can be called a representative democracy or a democratic republic.Eileen
E.K. VanWie, Ed.D.
Email: [email protected]
“We are all bound up together in one great bundle of humanity.”
Frances Ellen Watkins Harper 1866
“To me there is nothing complicated about ordinary equality.”Alice Paul – Circa 1917
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Attributed to Eleanor Roosevelt – Circa 1940
On Saturday, September 3, 2022, 09:08:06 PM MDT, michaelspotts1951 <[email protected]> wrote:
I’m sorry Eileen but you seem to have forgotten one essential thing, actually, the most important thing one needs to know about the United States. We are a Constitutional REPUBLIC with a representative style of Government. We aren’t a Democracy. Pure Democracy goes against everything our Founding Fathers envisioned and created. Guess we might just differ on this but a dialogue on the subject would be fun.
Have a Great weekend.
Michael.
Sent from my Galaxy
——– Original message ——–From: “E.K. VanWie” <[email protected]>Date: 9/3/22 6:11 PM (GMT-07:00)To: Michael Potts <[email protected]>, Kathleen brook <[email protected]>Subject: Re: Meeting Thursday night
Thank you for your thoughtful message, Michael.
Your comments at the CCIA meeting about the machine tabulators was very helpful.
Until about the last 5 or 6 years, I have believed the Electoral College to be essential for many of the reasons you state. However, it is not working the way it was intended. A direct democracy approach now seems better to me.
Eileen
E.K. VanWie, Ed.D.
Email: [email protected]
“We are all bound up together in one great bundle of humanity.”
Frances Ellen Watkins Harper 1866
“To me there is nothing complicated about ordinary equality.”Alice Paul – Circa 1917
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Attributed to Eleanor Roosevelt – Circa 1940
On Saturday, September 3, 2022, 04:29:57 PM MDT, Kathleen brook <[email protected]> wrote:
Thank you, Michael, for your note and especially for your comments about the voting machines.
I agree with you about what the Constitution intends with respect to the Electoral College — and would much rather discuss that topic than voting machines. I have found the prospect of electing a President who does not win the popular vote to be disturbing since high school. Unlike your experience, I haven’t changed my mind since then. But in the absence of a Constitutional amendment, I recognize that the Electoral College is a reality.
Enjoy your weekend.Kathy Brook
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 3, 2022, at 4:05 PM, Michael Potts <[email protected]> wrote:
Ms. Van Wie and Ms. Brook
It was a pleasure to meet you last Thursday night. I appreciate the time that the CCIA leader gave me in explaining how the Dominion machines do exactly what they are intended to do. I have had some issues with a few of your goals and platforms in particular the Electoral College. I assume you have both studied politics a little bit and you have delved into the Constitution and what our Founding Fathers did to create this Great Document. As you know, the electoral college is detailed in The Constitution of the United States, Article II, section 1, starting in paragraph 3 where it states that “THE Electors shall meet in their respective states and vote by Ballot for two persons, of whom one at least shall not be an Inhabitant of the same state with themselves.”If you need further clarification as to the why’s, and wherefores of the Electoral College I would point you to the Federalist Papers, number 68 in specific, written by Alexander Hamilton. Hamilton specifically states that the process of election affords a moral certainty, that the office of President will never fall to the lot of any man who is not in an eminent degree endowed with the requisite qualifications. Talents for low intrigue, and the little arts of popularity, may alone suffice to elevate a man to the first honors in a single State; but it will require other talents, and a different kind of merit, to establish him in the esteem and confidence of the WHOLE UNION, or of so considerable a portion of it as would be necessary to make him a successful candidate for the distinguished office of President of the United States.I must also remind you that the United States is made up of 50 Sovereign States that have come together to form this United States, this Union that we have been able to keep together for 246 years. It is NOT the individual that counts when voting for President, it is the STATE that you are a citizen of. If either of you do not understand that, then I do not mind sitting with you to have a discussion of where each individual in the United States falls in place at. Step 1: We each go to the polls to vote. Step 2. Those votes are tabulated and the individual having the most votes (Winner takes all) wins and the Electors that represent the party that wins will reflect that when they do their duty to vote. It is NOT individual popular vote ACROSS the United States…. that way eliminates all borders and boundaries and makes the United States one big entity and that is not how we are composed. We are composed of 50 seperate, and equal States that each have the right to tell Congress who their STATE wants to be President. If we allowed strictly Popular Vote across the whole of the United States then it has been proven that 5 or 6 states could be dictatorial to all the rest of the 44 or 45 states in our UNION. Take the population of Pennsylvania, New York, Florida, Texas, and California and they could be dictating to the rest of the United States as to who will be President.I, at one time, in my youth, thought the Electoral College should be abolished but then I grew up and I studied the Electoral College and the Federalist Papers and the need for the process that our Forefathers built to keep us secure and I changed my mind about it and realize how IMPORTANT the Electoral College is to the Election Integrity of the United States of America.I will stop this for now but if you would like to have a one on one discussion so you can better understand how the Electoral College works and the need for it to continue to thrive, then I can make myself available.
Respectfully,
Michael S. Potts
